Ben Skipper and Nick Budd

Here’s the second episode from Adjutants Lounge, all rights are Ben and Phil.

Half an hour for everybody, the rest for paid subscribers. Might release for free to everybody in future, might not.

Audio for free here

Audio file

20230317 Fallout - The Adjutants Lounge_ Ukraine Update.mp3

Transcript

00:00:33 Ben Skipper

Hello and welcome to the auctions lounge. Here on fallout trumpet, apologies in advance like a little bit of a cold, so if a little bit initially, I'd do it. You know, I do apologise. I'm joined today by Nick Budd. Nick, how are you, my friend?

00:00:50 Nick Budd

Yeah, not bad. Not bad at all.

00:00:51 Nick Budd

Then, as as as we were saying earlier in the preamble, it's it's nice to see you going and thanks for the invite onto onto the pub.

00:00:59 Ben Skipper

No, that's it's really kind of you to to to come back. It's it's been a bit of a strange few months, so.

00:01:07 Ben Skipper

Thank you so much for for for returning. For those of you thinking. Ohh, where's Nick? He's there. We just haven't got a video. We, you know, we Paul. Nick's tried. And a certain piece of software just doesn't like him today.

00:01:21 Philip Blood

What can we say?

00:01:23 Nick Budd

I wouldn't say that's necessarily a bad thing, though. On that basis, then the probably the listening figures will be up. I think it would turn places a lot because if they were viewing figures.

00:01:32 Nick Budd

Well.

00:01:33 Ben Skipper

What? What am I able to do? Just try and try and get some?

00:01:36 Ben Skipper

Some.

00:01:36 Ben Skipper

Sort of sticker and put it over your face, and there's probably a way to do it, and we can choose somebody who's really.

00:01:43 Ben Skipper

We'll go get her.

00:01:44 Nick Budd

Many, many of the volunteers have tried to do that on the daily basis in terms of stickers over my mouth, but they've not succeeded yet. So.

00:01:54 Ben Skipper

Well, we're we're we're back. And you're gonna be and I do apologise. And we're doing this talking today, buddy.

00:02:02 Nick Budd

No problem.

00:02:03 Ben Skipper

With, with with the with the current situation in Ukraine.

00:02:09 Ben Skipper

Explain what? Where, where his connection lies. Ukraine.

00:02:13 Ben Skipper

This is gonna be I, I imagine at times it's gonna be quite challenging. Listen, so to that end, listen of your discretion is suggested. We won't be, you know, Russell, I'll say on that.

00:02:32 Ben Skipper

So we are talking about war and then everything that comes with that.

00:02:37 Ben Skipper

So, Nick, how's the how's the? How's the project going? Well, can you tell us a little bit more about the project first, please?

00:02:44 Nick Budd

Yeah, sure. So I think perhaps once or twice last year when I was on the pod alongside yourself and Phil, I mentioned probably mentioned that I started volunteering with a local charity that was.

00:03:01 Nick Budd

Set up around one week into the. I wouldn't call it the war because the war, in my opinion started in the, you know, the Russian, the Russia Ukrainian war started in 2014 with the annexation of the Crimea and.

00:03:19 Nick Budd

Russian forces in in the Donbas, and so anyway, after the invasion of February 26, was it of of 2022 a I live in Epsom and a local Ukrainian lady with some British friends.

00:03:40 Nick Budd

Wanted to do something to support Ukraine and and to that end, I think they started off with just collecting some money and sending sending money back home to friends and family. But very quickly it manifested into what has become, I believe, a truly.

00:04:01 Nick Budd

I can't say if it's unique. It's a unique charity and structure that we have here, but I can't imagine it's replicated many places across the UK.

00:04:13 Nick Budd

So what happened was it started, say, one week into the invasion, the local shopping centre allowed Surrey stands with Ukraine, which was the name that was given to the charity, to have a shop free of charge.

00:04:33 Nick Budd

In the Ashley Centre shopping centre.

00:04:36 Nick Budd

In Epsom and the Council waived rates for that end and the the what used to be a a close outlet became our hub as as we would call it for the receipt of donations, either monetary or physical.

00:04:56 Nick Budd

Physical donations being.

00:04:59 Nick Budd

Clothing. Well, no, actually not clothing at the time it was food, medical supplies and toiletries.

00:05:09 Nick Budd

Anything that was envisaged as supporting the Ukrainian population from a humanitarian point of view.

00:05:17 Nick Budd

Not the military, because under the under the umbrella.

00:05:22 Nick Budd

Charity that we belong to, charops HR Missions Limited, which was a charity already established in the area.

00:05:31 Nick Budd

It's a humanitarian aid charity, so there is there's no supplying of aid to the military on that end because it would contravene our the the charities guidelines as a humanitarian aid charity so.

00:05:49 Nick Budd

It's was originally, as you could imagine, the the initial frenzy of of donations was incredible. The reaction from the local community, and I think it's fair to say from from the UK.

00:06:04 Nick Budd

White has been, you know, really supportive and positive of of Ukraine and its plight against unprovoked aggression, though I think in the first couple of days.

00:06:19 Nick Budd

I hasten to add I I wasn't. I didn't actually join the the charity until around June. I didn't know it existed, but I understand. In the first few days I literally took on potentially you.

00:06:31 Nick Budd

Know.

00:06:32 Nick Budd

Well, four or £5000 in cash donations for the first few days.

00:06:38 Nick Budd

Literally inundated with medical supplies, food, non perishable foods, etcetera, and and toiletries.

00:06:49 Nick Budd

And also, yeah, some clothing which was designed to help search and rescue teams out in Ukraine. And so that was the that was the start and then I came upon the the charity probably in about June most people would have probably known from my Twitter feed.

00:07:08 Nick Budd

That I've got friends in Ukraine prior to the invasion, one of which was in Mariupol. I lost contact with her for about 50 days.

00:07:21 Nick Budd

And.

00:07:23 Nick Budd

Plus, I was concerned about other friends that I had in Kiev and Harkov harkov, you know, is still under.

00:07:31 Nick Budd

Under great threats on a probably on a daily basis due to its proximity to to to the border only being about 30 kilometres from the Russian border and yeah, so I was concerned about Ukraine. Was wondering how I could support them practically and so.

00:07:51 Nick Budd

One day, just walking through the Ashley Centre in Epsom, I happened upon.

00:07:55 Nick Budd

The hub saw the blue and yellow livery outside and just asked what what they were doing and what they were about. And so I started loading vans or and and taxis full of aids that that evening. I think I popped on there at 2:00 in the afternoon by 5:00, I was loading loading vans for them and.

00:08:15 Nick Budd

Sometimes is with aid that we've we've gathered that sort of progress to the point whereby we have partnered with a another local charity called the Epsom Annual Refugee Network.

00:08:32 Nick Budd

And I think they've been established since about 1917, sorry 19/17/2000 and seventeen 2018.

00:08:39 Nick Budd

Slipping into World War One.

00:08:40 Philip Blood

Just a bit of foresight.

00:08:47 Nick Budd

We ended up partnering with them. They say they were an existing charity and they were primarily looking after.

00:08:58 Nick Budd

UM.

00:08:59 Nick Budd

Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans who were who were immigrants refugees, should I say, into the borough and but then of course, we had our following the the UK government allowing Ukrainians to come to the UK under the the the visa scheme and the the the family for Ukraine.

00:09:19 Nick Budd

Scheme the homes for Ukraine scheme, where sponsors would open their houses and properties to to Ukrainian families, they.

00:09:30 Nick Budd

They were suddenly dealt with a a large influx of Ukrainians who needed support, and we have about 150 families in the Epsom and surrounding area. And now in fact, we have families or Ukrainians coming from north London into deep Surrey.

00:09:51 Nick Budd

From a reasonable distance away, as our reputation has has evolved and got out there, I guess primarily through Ukrainian networking here.

00:10:05 Nick Budd

So the refugee network, what they provided was the soft services where as Surrey stands with Ukraine, we are essentially A logistics exercise in essence of just receiving money.

00:10:20 Nick Budd

Receiving donations and receiving physical goods. Again, medical supplies, non perishable foods, toiletries, and we ship those out to Ukraine or with the cash we're able to buy items such as generate.

00:10:35 Nick Budd

Others specialist trauma medical items that we wouldn't ever be donated and or more recent things such as portable cookers to to try and mitigate the energy problems that that, that many in Ukraine have have suffered. So what the refugee network do is they.

00:10:54 Nick Budd

Provide a holistic service to the Ukrainians here who have come plotting a new life for Ukraine for however long that is and that.

00:11:06 Nick Budd

Includes.

00:11:07 Nick Budd

Starting creating bank accounts, getting children to schools, trying to find accommodation if they, for whatever reason, they they have no further accommodation by the sponsor, they help them with accommodation. They have a job club to.

00:11:28 Nick Budd

And probably most importantly is here at the hub. Now we've evolved into having English language classes five days a week, typically morning and afternoons and at our peak on a Wednesday, which is today. We probably have around 105 Ukrainian students in here learning.

00:11:48 Nick Budd

English and take advantage of the.

00:11:53 Nick Budd

Of what we offer here, which is a safe haven and a A.

00:11:59 Nick Budd

A great work for for socialising with fellow Ukrainians.

00:12:03 Nick Budd

All in the knowledge that they have the support of both the refugee network and so it stands with Ukraine. Who? Who?

00:12:11 Nick Budd

Who are here in in our hub, in in the Ashley Centre in Epson. So hopefully that's sort of the synopsis of how it started.

00:12:22 Nick Budd

And how it's evolved into sort of what the services and and what we provide today.

00:12:29 Ben Skipper

It's been very busy, hasn't it? Thank you ever so much for that, because I appreciate this. You know the the by following you on social media, I know the the organisation has evolved and this certainly and I only met it's it's founding principles it's it's Excel excelled them hasn't it really.

00:12:48 Ben Skipper

For example, today, which is the 15th of March 2023 unnoticed put on a lovely selection of photographs of your emulated deliveries and the support you're getting from the wider community is brilliant.

00:13:02 Ben Skipper

In in terms of.

00:13:06 Ben Skipper

What what you know?

00:13:10 Ben Skipper

Contacts within Ukraine.

00:13:13 Ben Skipper

And and overall feedback, what's your impression of the the current situation and if if you want to ask?

00:13:23 Nick Budd

Yeah, that's a good question and and actually.

00:13:27 Nick Budd

It's something that is quite dear to me and.

00:13:32 Nick Budd

I find somewhat frustrating, certainly within on the social media and other medias on how you Ukraine is not, not necessarily perceived, but how it's perhaps lectured to, I think the phrase the new vogue phrase is West planning.

00:13:53 Nick Budd

Where commentators in Western Europe, North America, perhaps voice opinions.

00:14:01 Nick Budd

That.

00:14:02 Nick Budd

Suggest how we believe as the West, whatever the West is, whether that's the EU, say North America, NATO and I believe firmly that we need to be listening to Ukrainians.

00:14:18 Nick Budd

Because it's happening to Ukraine and its people. So on that note, I suppose perhaps I feel I have greater insight than perhaps some of these, some some of these commentators in the sense that I had Ukrainian friends before the war before the invasion.

00:14:38 Nick Budd

I've been able to make contacts via zoom etcetera with them in cities from east to West, from Lviv to key to Harkov, and even now still in Mariupol. I I've been able to make contact again with my friend in Mariupol and I suppose I speak to them.

00:14:58 Nick Budd

Three to four times a week, various people and so.

00:15:02 Nick Budd

I I sort of feel that I have a they they there's two views I get there's one one set of views from Ukrainians who live in Ukraine and and I have views from those Ukrainians who have come to the UK and are settling in and around where I live.

00:15:23 Nick Budd

And I see them on a daily basis and I talk to them and I get their views and opinions.

00:15:29 Nick Budd

Two and.

00:15:32 Nick Budd

I suppose.

00:15:34 Nick Budd

The broad impression that I have had is that originally, after the initial shock and progress of the Russian armed forces was negated and they withdrew from Kiev, and then the counter offensive by the Ukrainian Armed forces in Harkov in in late.

00:15:54 Nick Budd

Late summer, and then finally in her son in November, I believe.

00:16:00 Nick Budd

As.

00:16:02 Nick Budd

The I think the view was more generally generally the view was more positive in the sense that they felt that the this invasion, this war, was going to last.

00:16:17 Nick Budd

No more than months and.

00:16:22 Nick Budd

That was true of Ukrainians here and in Ukraine. Certainly the people I I, I I speak to and I'm and to quantify the people I speak to.

00:16:32 Nick Budd

I guess we're probably talking perhaps these are 20 to 30 people who I sort of have reasonable close relationships with now with now and that's that was broadly their view. It was always they felt they were going to be in the UK for a few months, three months.

00:16:50 Nick Budd

6.

00:16:50 Nick Budd

Months and then it would be.

00:16:52 Nick Budd

It would be finished.

00:16:53 Nick Budd

They they never conveyed to me how they felt. It would finish and but again, that was the broadly the same response from my friends in in, in Ukraine and but that.

00:17:07 Nick Budd

I would say since New Year around Christmas New Year that.

00:17:10 Nick Budd

It's that's it's become. I would say they're more pessimistic in the sense that I think there's a a a realisation not, perhaps necessarily acceptance, but a realisation that.

00:17:26 Nick Budd

The wall was going to go on longer than they anticipated and it would be harder.

00:17:32 Nick Budd

Than anticipated, and I suppose, harder. What do I mean by that? I think it means that the sacrifice that the Ukrainian armed forces are making is larger than they would have understandably hoped for.

00:17:49 Nick Budd

So yeah, there's. I would say there's been a drop in overall.

00:17:56 Nick Budd

What's the word? Spirits. I couldn't call it. Yeah, of of people of Ukrainians here that I speak to on that basis. They they understand it. Or they believe now the war is going to last a lot.

00:18:08 Nick Budd

Longer than they originally anticipated.

00:18:10 Nick Budd

Related and that sort of acceptance or view is pretty much as I say, yeah, replicated in Ukraine from from people I speak to there.

00:18:22 Nick Budd

So that's, that's where the that's where the current thinking is and how it's shifted.

00:18:30 Nick Budd

And.

00:18:32 Nick Budd

I I look and see my Ukrainian friends here on a.

00:18:38 Nick Budd

Daily basis. I'm here at the.

00:18:42 Nick Budd

You know, 7 pretty much seven days a week at some stage and you can and just talking to Ukrainians and listening to them. And that's the most important thing, is listening rather than us in the West talking and imposing our views and and thoughts on it. It's it's important to listen to them and.

00:19:03 Nick Budd

So yeah, it's challenging. I think for Ukrainians both here and clearly back home, who?

00:19:09 Nick Budd

Who are who are under the threat of air attack on a daily basis? Clearly, the Ukrainians here understand entirely that they are safe. They are safe.

00:19:20 Nick Budd

But I think there is also an element of. Would it be survivors? Guilt. The fact that they've been able to get out and they have family friends.

00:19:30 Nick Budd

Mothers, grandparents, husbands, brothers who are still at home and are still in danger.

00:19:37 Nick Budd

On a daily basis. So hopefully that's given a flavour of.

00:19:42 Nick Budd

My perception.

00:19:43 Nick Budd

Based upon my interactions with Ukrainians as to how?

00:19:48 Nick Budd

The attitude has changed.

00:19:52 Ben Skipper

It's it's interesting you should mention.

00:19:56 Ben Skipper

The especially sort of in terms of the longevity as a war, because we we're now in that second year of the war and the second year of any war tends to be the other, a pivotal year or year.

00:20:08 Philip Blood

Of.

00:20:09 Ben Skipper

A down test and adjusting.

00:20:11 Nick Budd

Uh-huh.

00:20:14 Ben Skipper

And so I I fully understand in that respect, why there is perhaps when the Ukrainians a little bit of or when it's going to end feeling.

00:20:25 Ben Skipper

I.

00:20:26 Ben Skipper

Going going back a little to to the contacts that you have, I won't mention them for per SEC reasons that you have currently in Ukraine, how are they fighting it?

00:20:41 Nick Budd

Yeah, it's that's that's that's that's a good question, so.

00:20:43 Nick Budd

Are you?

00:20:51 Nick Budd

I think I in the contacts I have there, which are probably about half a dozen to a dozen. I would speak to regularly or semi regularly.

00:21:03 Nick Budd

Most are.

00:21:06 Nick Budd

Most are still.

00:21:09 Nick Budd

There seems to be there seems to be what I would describe as unconditional support for what the Ukrainian Government is trying to achieve. And as I, as I understand their objectives of what victory is to them, which is the expulsion of Russian forces from.

00:21:30 Nick Budd

Ukrainian territory and that Ukrainian territory is obviously Donbass, her son in the South and and the Crimea. There really does seem to be.

00:21:43 Nick Budd

You know, really unequivocal.

00:21:46 Nick Budd

Support unconditional support, albeit from just discussions. I noted the other day about two weeks ago. I think the I think Zelensky was polling at some somewhere around the mid to late 80s in terms of popularity and.

00:22:04 Nick Budd

I remember literally just before the invasion started in February of last year. I think it was polling at mid.

00:22:10 Nick Budd

20s.

00:22:12 Nick Budd

Dissatisfaction at that time with his domestic policies, so the, you know, the support seems to genuinely be there for what the Ukrainian Government is trying to achieve.

00:22:26 Nick Budd

The.

00:22:28 Nick Budd

I would say that.

00:22:30 Nick Budd

A A visceral emotion that has come out of.

00:22:37 Nick Budd

Pretty much all the Ukrainians I the Ukraine, especially the Ukrainians I speak to in Ukraine, is hate.

00:22:45 Nick Budd

Now it's hate of Russia and of Russians, and of what they have.

00:22:54 Nick Budd

Done to Ukraine and to Ukrainian people. It really does come across to me. It's all you know, it's almost tangible and.

00:23:07 Nick Budd

And when I speak to Ukrainians here about that, they're less.

00:23:14 Nick Budd

They're less open in how they.

00:23:18 Nick Budd

And how they present that their their emotions oddly to me. But yeah, it's certainly in Ukraine there and and I see other Ukrainian commentators, I'm talking about Ukrainians themselves.

00:23:34 Nick Budd

Often, hate comes up hate for for.

00:23:38 Nick Budd

For the for what Russia has imparted and the brutality it's imparted on their country.

00:23:46 Nick Budd

Friend of mine in Harkey V she is.

00:23:51 Nick Budd

Utterly resolute, she will not leave. She has reasons to stay in Harkov due to her parents. There are economic reasons why they have to stay in Harkey now because, for example, rental prices in the central and Western part of Ukraine have gone through the roof as.

00:24:09 Nick Budd

The.

00:24:12 Nick Budd

You know the displacement of refugees internally within Ukraine and people earlier in the invasion migrated W to try and stay out of direct Russian aggression, took up available properties. So supply and demand and so.

00:24:31 Nick Budd

No. So it's it's a struggle for them now to even leave Hakeem should they want to. She is the only she she is working. She's lucky. I think in that sense because obviously the economy of Ukraine has utterly collapsed as a result of the war.

00:24:51 Nick Budd

And employment has gone. Unemployment has.

00:24:56 Nick Budd

Has gone risen dramatically and her parents own a a shoe shop in Ukraine, so they have a small business there and she uses her, her wages to try and finance her parents when, as they've struggled to maintain their business.

00:25:15 Nick Budd

And through throughout the conflict, my friend in Mariupol, who was able to escape Maria Paul back in around March of last April of last year, she went to Berdyansk.

00:25:30 Nick Budd

South East of Mariupol and now she is back in Mariupol.

00:25:36 Nick Budd

The reasons why she stayed.

00:25:39 Nick Budd

At the time, how she explained it to me was she felt that she was actually safer in Russian territory on the basis that.

00:25:49 Nick Budd

The perception was that Russia was stronger and they would.

00:25:55 Nick Budd

They would send more missiles and air attacks into Ukraine, and so she and her mother would be at greater risk.

00:26:08 Nick Budd

That was her reasoning at the time, and it transpires that her flat that she had with her mother was largely intact. From recollection, she was in the north western suburb of Mariupol and I think they just had damage to their windows.

00:26:30 Nick Budd

But she is. She's there. But I'm very, very careful in how I speak to her now because my understanding is from June, summer of last year, as Russians implemented their own communications infrastructure in occupied areas of Ukraine.

00:26:50 Nick Budd

They thus monitor the traffic there and I think you know our friend.

00:26:59 Nick Budd

Uhm.

00:27:00 Nick Budd

Ohh goodness me. Well matters who is our friends on Twitter? Well, ohh for goodness sake. He's going to kill.

00:27:10 Nick Budd

Me.

00:27:11 Nick Budd

He he, he, he, he of the young mute at the moment you're on mute at the.

00:27:16 Ben Skipper

Yeah. Sorry, Robert. Is that Matt Ford?

00:27:17 Nick Budd

Yeah, and.

00:27:20 Nick Budd

Matt board, of course. Sorry, Matthew. Apologies. You know, Matthew, obviously, in his book, his co-authored book with regards to the use of the smartphone in war. You know, that's been proven to.

00:27:35 Nick Budd

To to sadly enable Russian authorities to track down pro Ukrainians, you know, pro Ukrainians and and use the technology against them. So my conversations with my friend in Mariupol is is essentially very vanilla. I don't.

00:27:52

Hmm.

00:27:55 Nick Budd

Ask anything that I believe could potentially put her in a compromising position so our relationship has sort of significantly changed, whereas we were free to talk about anything previously now.

00:28:11 Nick Budd

No.

00:28:12 Nick Budd

She doesn't offer anything much. It's it's just how are you?

00:28:18 Nick Budd

You know how.

00:28:19 Nick Budd

Do you? Are you OK? What are you doing? It's just very plain vanilla. Because I I generally don't want to compromise her and her mother should.

00:28:33 Nick Budd

You know, should I ask something that and she answers in a way that potentially could be monitored. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive to that, but I just wouldn't want to run that risk. But again, then friends in Odessa again, really. One thing that has genuinely, genuinely.

00:28:54 Nick Budd

That impressed me. Is the the resilience of what I would say broad broadly the the, you know, the Ukrainian nation as, as, as a whole it's it's it's quite incredible. And I see how that manifests itself here through.

00:29:13 Nick Budd

I probably don't know a Ukrainian that doesn't support their families and the military back home in some way, shape or form, everything is designed.

00:29:26 Nick Budd

Work is designed to not just be able to live here, but is designed to be able to provide items back home. I think I.

00:29:36 Nick Budd

Saw a survey.

00:29:37 Nick Budd

The other day on Ukrainian Ukrainian nation has raised 500 million U.S. dollars.

00:29:45 Nick Budd

In support of the Ukrainian Armed forces in.

00:29:51 Nick Budd

In contrast, I think it's around 20 million U.S. dollars with regards to humanitarian aid and what that tells me based upon those stark figures, 500 million to 20 million U.S. dollars.